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Pontiac Rear Main Seal installation Information:

Taken from the Q&A page at  http://www.classicalpontiac.com

This information is for reference only, current as of 3/14/2000

Visit my site at:   Fred's Pontiac information

Email comments or suggestions to: fteufert1@worldnet.att.net

Topic: 6054

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- Drats that rear main oil seal! - al 1/26/99 3:06

Well after toying with my rear oil pan gasket believing it to be the culprit,I have finally discovered it is not to blame. It is my rear main oil seal that is leaking. Engine has less then 50 hours running time and has sat for 2-3 months in between start-uos which perhaps caused it to dry up and leak. I am hoping that an over-filled oil pan can cause it to leak through the rear main..anyone know for sure??? The problem is this: I have a stock capacity oil pan and a 3 quart accusump and a relocated chevy style oil filter. I normally put in 10qts of oil into car,6qts for engine and filter,3qts for accusump and 1qt for the relocating oil lines(they are about 6-8 feet in total and about 1 inch in diameter). Today I lowered the oil level by 1 quart and it seemed to leak less. Later the same day I lowered it again one quart and will see what happens when I fire her up tomorrow. The whole point of my rambling on like this is: If an engine has too much oil in it..is it normal for it to leak the excess out of the rear main oil seal?if so will it damage my rear main oil seal? My engine leaks when running and when jacked up from the nose when not running, I watch the drops of oil form on the lower half of the main cap(they form slowly). If rear main oil seal needs replacing can someone tell me what needs to be done to replace it while in car.

Responses

- Dustin Watkins 1/26/99 9:35

If the engine is a 400, you will have to remove the crank to install new rope seals. If the engine is a 421 to a 455, you may purchase a neoprenen rear main seal from Nunzis or a similar place. I have installed neoprene seals without removing the crank in Chevy engines without a single leak afterwards. All you have to do is remove the rear cap, remove the old seals, using a small wooden dowl to work the upper seal out, then work the new one in by sliding it in the slot, allowing it to rotate around the crank. Don't use a screwdriver, you make scratch the cap or puncture the seals if it's sharp. DO NOT attempt this with a rope seal, it WILL NOT work, and you will end up with the same problem, but worse.

- warrenk ..\members/html/32.html..\members/html/32.html1/26/99 10:41

Al, I have replaced the upper rope seal with the engine in the car. I used a "sneaky-pete" to grap the old upper rope and pull it out. Then pull the new one in and around the crank using the same tool. I bought the tool at Pepboys. If you use this method take your time so you don't tear the old rope while removing it. If turn the crank while pulling and inserting the rope, it will come out easily. I had no leaks.

Witchdoctor Bio 1/26/99 10:47

All seals are designed to work within a specified range. If you have so much oil in the pan that it actually drips out with the nose of the car jacked up, it is possibility beyond the limit of any seal to control. I'm curious. Is this a road racing set-up? If the Canton pan is properly sized and baffled, is the accusump really necessary? WD.

- al 1/26/99 11:46

WD it is a road race set-up and originally I had the accusump and an h-o pan. So I thought the accusump was needed. I just recently got the canton road race pan. I have considered removing the accusump,because of the superior baffling of the canton road race pan. But it's easier right now to keep it. BTW it was leaking with the h-o pan as well. Will fire car up later today...I'm keeping my fingers crossed/

- al 1/26/99 15:50

Fired her up today and it still is leaking. I initially drained 8qts(5 in pan and 3 in accusump) when attempting the repair. I have since replaced the amount and drained 1.5-2qts but it still leaks. Was hoping over-filled condition was causing leak,but I think it's safe to say that it is the rear main oil seal. Unless anyone has any ideas that's what next on my list. Its very aggravating,new engine,hardly any run time,lots of money,blood,sweat and tears and nothing but aggravation,sorry had to vent.

- Dustin Watkins 1/26/99 20:28

I hear you. It's always the small, inexpensive, hard to replace parts that fail.

KK Bio 1/27/99 0:30

If your'e getting a lot of leakage, the seal was probably not installed correctly, and letting the car sit may have aggrivated the problem. During the winter months in the midwest, I run the engine periodically for approx 30 minutes (too messy outside to drive it) to keep the seals active. Sometimes the seals not only dry out, they take a set and the distortion causes a leak. You might try a stop leak additive for the crankcase oil or maybe heavier weight oil (20w-50?) and see if that helps. Of course if you go that route you'll need to be patient with it for awhile as I wouldn't expect instant results. Otherwise you can always pull the engine! If you get HPP magazine, they had some tips in the past 2 issues about this.I havent attempted to replace a seal while the engine is still in the car. I wouldn't trust myself doing that but there might be others more skilled at that method.

- larryS lsch@sccoast.net 1/27/99 8:44

al-I feel your pain

- Mr. Fix-it 1/28/99 2:24

Make sure you have the engine vented correctly. When a higher oil level is used, the "air" area in the engine is made smaller, and this will allow more air pressure to build inside the engine case, and the excess pressure pushes oil out everywhere there is a waek sealing area. Make sure you have a good PCV system in place, with large enough volume, or the breathers are large enough and clear. Just a thought.

- al 1/28/99 7:05

Thanx for all the advice guys. Good point mr.fix-it

fireguy Bio 1/29/99 7:17

If the level is high enough to leak past the seal, would this not also cause the crank to be rotating in a pool of oil causing drad, and whipping up the oil like a milk shake. Just a thought

- al 1/29/99 14:52

fireguy what you say does not happen,because when engine is running the extra 3 quarts is always in the accusump. It stays in accusump when car is not running as long as the electric valve is closed.Thanx though.

MikeB. Bio 1/30/99 16:03

Al, I just replaced the rear seal on my 400 a couple of months ago. The only things to remember are set the engine to TDC before starting and have a friend help. I could not get the rope seal in with the sneaky pete until I had a friend rotate the engine while I pulled the seal through. It was just a matter of cutting the seal FLUSH and adding a small dab of silicone to the ends after that. Mike

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html1/30/99 18:35

NEVER, EVER, EVER use silicone on a rope main seal. The rope seal is a piece of oil and graphite impregnated rope and silicone (or any other sealer) WILL NOT stay stuck to this no matter what you may think. Every rear rope seal I've ever pulled that had silicone on was a leaker.

Witchdoctor Bio 1/30/99 18:40

A light dab of plain old Permatex non-hardening has always worked for me. I hate RTV. WD.

- al 1/31/99 2:11

I will probably end up using the neoprene/polyacrylate rear main oil seal. Any thoughts..

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html1/31/99 3:02

Check the most recent archives, the neoprene rear seal install was just covered very recently.

- al 1/31/99 5:55

reference topic number 5595 in index number 6. I too have read the method outlined in chiltons/haynes books and they describe cutting pieces of the rope seal and putting(packing) it into the upper seal area along with a rope seal. Is this what is considered packing the seal? Sorry I know this topic is beat to death,but I want to be clear on my options.thanx

Steve Chin Bio 2/1/99 12:21

Al, yes... There is supposed to be 3/4" of seal on each end of the upper main seal that is "packed" into the groove, with the resultant void filled with a new "chunk" of rope seal.

Topic: 7142

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- Cad neoprine rear main seal - alien Bio 3/15/99 19:38

Has anybody had any luck using the Cadilac neoprine rear main seal on the 400 c.i. as shown in the Decembers issue of HPP? I'm thinking of using this method versus the rope seal and was wondering if this is the prefferd method instead of the antiqauted rrope seal?

Responses

- gregg 3/15/99 20:24

I think it was for a 455 only, I put one in and took it out, it just didnt fit right (too narrow) I feel more comfortable with the rope. The crank has lines cut into it that will rub right on the seal also.

Johnathan Bio 3/15/99 21:24

its only for large journal ponchos and cadi motors of course

- Bob Dillon rdillon2@ix.netcom.com 3/15/99 22:39

I have one in my 455. About 1500 miles on a completely rebuilt engine, no leaks so far. Follow the instructions for Pontiac use carefully, especially re: lubrication before torquing the mains.

- Bob Dillon 3/15/99 22:40

P.S. It's a Fel-Pro part, abut $12, e-mail me for the part number. Large journal only.

Kenny G. Bio 3/16/99 2:46

HPP really screwed up on that article and never mentioned it was only for the large journal engines.

- Tim'79 lights@goodnet.com 3/16/99 11:03

I put one in my 79 TA 455. I have only about 100 miles on it (still trying to get the carb right and a few other minor things) but no leaks so far. I got it from Warrior and followed their directions to the LETTER. I feel pretty good about it.

- Joel Koontz jwkoontz@bedford.net 3/16/99 18:24

I got a Neoprene seal from H-O Racing many years ago. I don't know that is was the Cad seal but I suspect that it was. It ran for many years and many thousands of miles in a 455 W/O any leaks. I am using the Cad seal in my present motor and it works fine. I think Jim Butler sell them for $10.00 Good luck, Joel**********PS. I'm not sure but I think I have read that 460 Ford seal will work in 3" journal motors.

alien Bio 3/16/99 19:53

Thanks for all the info.! I'm glad I posted the question, I thought it was to be used on a 400, which I'm rebuilding, I guess I need to stick with the rope seal!

alien Bio 3/17/99 19:15

I take it the 400 crank journals are not considered large journals, so the neoprine seal would not work on my application?

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html3/17/99 19:25

The Caddy neopreme seal will only work with the large journal (421, 428 and 455) Pontiac engines.

- Joel Koontz jwkoontz@bedford.net 3/17/99 20:57

Why not buy a 460 Ford Seal and test fit it in the block. If it fits ok it should install just the same as the Cad seal does in the 455. If it does not fit you should be able to return it if you did not mess it up. Good luck, Joel

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html3/17/99 22:16

The Ford 460 seal is also for the large journal engines. Depending on which Pontiac vender you deal with, you might get the caddy seal or the ford seal. (I looked this up a while back and didn't find anything that even looked like it might work on the 326-400 Pontiacs. Bummer)

Kenny G. Bio 3/18/99 13:07

What I always wonder when this subject comes up is just how hard could it possibly be to get someone to make one of these seals for the small journal Pontiac engines. Would the production set up for one of these really be that much? Or am I just dreaming?

- Mike emilyrw@erols.com 3/18/99 16:29

The Ford 460 seal has the correct id for use on the 400. The problem with it is that the od. is to small and needs to have thin shim strips installed behind it to make sure it stays centered before clueing it into place. I installed one in my 72-400 and it's working well for me. Time will tell. I originally purchased the Cad seal at the local auto parts store and returned it. I asked to see a 460 seal for comparison and it was cearly the smaller of the two.

Topic: 8615

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- rear main rope seal help - Wally lindawi@seacove.net 5/19/99 16:50

Help! What is the best way to trim the rear main rope seal so as to get a clean cut at the block and bearing cap parting line. I just runied one seal, I was using new razor blades ( 4 on one side)and was having a difficult time getting them to cut much less a clean cut. Thanks

Responses

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html5/19/99 16:57

Package of new striaght edge razor blades. Don't try to cut all the way through with one pass, instead, take many, many, many (about a zillion) light passes. Helps to work all arond the seal, rather than just from one side. A sewing thimble will allow you to hold the seal in tight while cutting without shredding your fingers with the razor blades. Be patent and go slow, it can take a while to do right, but better to spend time now than have to pull the engine to fix later.

- Tim's 79 5/19/99 17:06

I can relate. I tried cutting a rope seal and had the same results. I ended up putting in the caddy seal and have have no leaks in 2500 miles. I did come up with an idea that might help. Try a piece of heat shrink tube on the end of the piece you want to cut, it might help keep it together while you work. Just a thought. Tim

Robb Bio 5/19/99 17:15

What about a nice new sharp pair of wire or side cutters? I'm curious what's easiest myself since I'll be doing this this weekend too.... Interenting Idea with the shrink-tubing. Thx - Robb.

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html5/19/99 17:22

Side cuts or wire cutters will not leave the desired flush cut with the face of the block and main cap surface. Try it on the "other seal" that comes with a gasket set and you'll see that these tools do not leave a straight cut.

kitch4 Bio 5/19/99 22:00

How 'bout one of those Dremel tools with a mini cut off wheel.

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html5/19/99 22:23

You'd have to have a VERY steady hand to use the Dremil tool. One slip, one nick on the block or main cap mating or bearing surface and your screwed.

- Critter 5/20/99 8:08

I used an Exacto knife with an extendable blade to cut mine. You can pick one up at about any Wal-Mart type store in the crafts section. The extended blade let me lay it flush with the block and then gently saw through the excess seal. You need to hold the seal in the groove while doing this so watch those finger tips.

Steve Chin Bio 5/20/99 16:57

Yup. As Todd and Critter said: Saw gently and watch those fingers.

MB Bio 5/20/99 20:17

A piece of three inch PVC pipe in the three inch main holds the rope well and you can knick it all you want.I used one of those extend-a-blade knives to saw it cleanly.

Witchdoctor Bio 5/21/99 20:59

The little plastic box knives with the serrated blades work well. The blade sticks out far enough to get a good flat angle on the cut, and as it gets dull, just snap the used section off. WD.

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Topic: 8768

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- Sealant on rear main rope seal - Wally lindawi@seacove.net 5/25/99 19:23

First Thanks for the responses for topic 8615 (cutting rear main rope seal)I got some good info and after about six hours and 35 extendable type razor blades I have what appears to be acceptable cuts. I would like to hear opinions on putting sealant on the ends of the rope seal. An article in pontiac magizine recommends putting sealant on the ends of the rope seals but the instructions with the seals (Fel-Pro) state DO NOT put any sealant on the rope seals. What is the general consensus and if you use sealant what type?

Responses

- 69GTO's 5/25/99 19:48

Wally I'm sure you'll get various responses to this one but I have used the sealant at the ends of the seal and a layer painted in the slot prior to installation with good results. More importantly use plenty of vasoline to keep it from drying out especially if storage or low use is in store. Drying out is the biggest enemy of a rope seal. I think the razor blade companies pay the rope seal guys to make them tough.

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html5/25/99 20:21

No, no, no sealer on rope seals, no, no, sealer, no! The rope seal is a graphite and grease impregnated piece of rope. No sealer known is going to stick to a greasey, graphite impregnated piece of rope for long. The factory didn't use sealer and the seal manufactururers say to not use sealer. I've never used sealer on rope seals and mine don't leak. Just don't forget to wipe a little oil on the seal where it meets the crank before final assembly.

Witchdoctor Bio 5/25/99 21:01

My shop manual states "Apply a 1/16" bead of silicone rubber sealer to cap parting line. Extend sealer continuously from center of seal (packing) to the outer gasket groove (Fig. 6-238)." I personally first insure that the seal groove in the block and cap are spotlessly clean, including the drilled recesses. I lightly smear non-hardening Permatex on the back of the new seal, and seat in the block with either a 3" or 3-1/4" tool and a mallet. I soak the seal with STP before lowering the crank into place, and trim the block seal ends. Main thing to watch for is that there are no loose fiber ends to get caught between cap and block. I seat the cap seal with the same tool and cut flush. Again, no loose strands. I shoot the cap seal surface with STP, lay a thin wipe of Permatex from the seal edge across the cap, and torque that humpty down. I've been building 3-5 Pontiac engines a year since 1967, and I have yet to have a rope seal leak. It works for me. WD.

kbmech Bio 5/25/99 22:09

could I use a piece of 3-1/4" round/aluminum stock and a deadblow hammer to pack in the seals?

- Dustin Watkins 5/26/99 0:51

Here's what I did. I soaked the seals in oil for around 10 minutes (to allow for better flexibility and compression while packing). Then I packed the seals in tight, then cut them. I used a little Indian Head gasket sealer on the rear main cap, but not on the rear seal.

Steve Chin Bio 5/26/99 15:44

Don't forget to pack the *ends* of the seal into the block per the factory instructions and pack additional seal material into the void. Failure to do so leads to leaks a few years down the road.

Witchdoctor Bio 5/26/99 16:10

Steve: I believe that the end packing with the tool ground as shown in the factory manuals is for repair of a leaking existing seal, with the engine in the car. I could be wrong, but I believe that new seal installation does not require the tamping proceedure. WD.

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html5/26/99 16:22

WD is correct that the packing method is for repairing a leaking seal with engine in the car. No need to pack a new seal, although I'm sure that it wouldn't hurt to do so.

Jim Hand Bio 5/26/99 16:59

Rear Seal: In the 1960 factory shop manual, packing additional pieces of seal is not specified. It specifies to apply a bead of sealant from the seal/groove to the edge of the pan gasket (cork). However, beginning with the 1965 manual and continuing with the '67, '71, and '73 manuals(I don't have manuals between 60 and 65), all specify to PACK four additional 3/8" pieces of packing into the block groove, and this is in every case of seal replacement. None discuss messing with a leaking seal. Why would you not install a new one if you have the engine apart, particularly in a Pontiac service shop? I am not sure what might have changed from 1960 to 1965, but I suspect that Pontiac was experiencing too many cases of leaking seals due to not correctly packing them. Is this not what caused some to assume that the incorrect size Cad or Ford plastic seals were somehow better, because they don't have the initial drag on the crank as do properly packed rope seals? I have pulled an engine down after about 100 miles of operation, and even though the seal was so tight that a long ½" breakover bar was required to turn it when assembled, the crank spun freely and even coasted to a stop after the rods were removed, but before the mains were released. The packed in preload is what makes the rope seal an effective seal, because the packing pressure spreads equally around the circumference of the seal and allows it to grip the crank to prevent oil leakage. Yet the design of the seal with the graphite impregnation (or whatever the black material is) provides excellent low friction and allows it to quickly conform to the new packed in shape without drag. Jim Hand

Witchdoctor Bio 5/26/99 17:38

Jim: Not wanting to get things more confused, nor appear to be argumenative, but the rear main bearing oil seal replacement portion of the "Service" manual, in my understanding is written solely from the standpoint of dealer service, not original engine assembly. I have yet to find a virgin engine with any separate pieces of rope seal material. Possibly I did not fully understand your post, but it seemed to advocate the packed peice method on a fresh rebuild, which I have never found necessary. If I screwed up, I'll buy dinner at Dallas. WD.

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html5/26/99 17:50

My 2 cents: Note that the factory service manuals were written with the idea of dealer "service" to components of the car with warrenty repair in mind. I have re-read the factory seal install proceedures in the service manuals over and over (have most all of 'em from 55-79) and in the seal install proceedure outlined in the service maunal, it is apparent that this is for repairing an existing leaky seal, as there is no menation of removing the crank or installing the upper half of the seal. I beleive the method outlined in the service manual is with the idea of what the minuimum required to repair a bad seal should a customer bring the car in with that specific problem only, rather than addressign installing a seal from scratch as in an engine rebuild (you'll notice that a complete rebuild isn't covering in the service manual, but only servicing "parts" of a rebuild in diff sections, like how to replace just one rod and piston, etc.). I'm sure we've all pulled enough original Pontiac engines apart to notice that the original rear main seals are only installed in 2 pieces from the factory, not 2 pieces with 4 little chunks that fall out when you pull the seals.

Jim Hand Bio 5/26/99 22:45

W.E. Todd, Very interesting discussion. I can understand both your viewpoints, and obviously the later shop manual procedure does provide a method of repairing a seal without pulling the crank. However, there is no other procedure in my manuals about how to install a rope seal. That procedure described in my above post applies in all cases in my opinion - otherwise, an alternate method of simply laying two pieces in place would be clearly described. The shop manuals cover every procedure necessary to do a complete overhaul, except for redoing a crank. Yes, it is in sections, but any mechanic or other person would follow each applicable procedure in the appropriate steps for a complete rebuild. For example, the '65 manual on pages 6.37 and 6.38 describes the steps to follow in removing and reinstalling a crank. Obviously, if you remove the crank, you have to reinstall a rear seal, and the only procedure to do it is listed on pages 6-28 and 6.29 of the '65 manual, which describes the technique of packing four additional pieces in. I don't want to interpret the manual for anyone, so don't claim to be right or wrong, but I would be interested in where each of you find the Pontiac approved procedure of just laying two strips of seal, rather then correctly packing them, from any Pontiac literature 1965 or later - the aftermarket Haynes, Motors, or other manuals do not necessarily represent the Pontiac technique, and I certainly do not consider them an authority! Finally, a question for each of you. Why not pack the seal? If it works with old stiff seal material, think what it will do with a fresh seal. The same concept of adding preload to the old piece applies equally to any new ones.----Again, you are correct in that the written procedure does describe a method of improving rear seal operation without pulling the crank, but it is the only procedure described in the manual, and accordingly, would appear to apply in all cases. Jim Hand

Witchdoctor Bio 5/26/99 23:42

This sounds like a lawyer's convention, but if the pieced seal installation is correct, why didn't Pontiac assemble the engines that way? WD.

Jim Hand Bio 5/27/99 8:30

W.D. Notice I got your initials correct this time. No, I am not a lawyer, but have found that Pontiac was able to perfect their suggested maintenance and repair instructions in the service manuals to the point that if followed, we will have the best performance and longevity possible with our Pontiac V8 engines. The addition of preload on the seal by packing four extra pieces in during assembly is further assurance that the seal will not leak regardless of the type of oil used. Accordingly, I plan to continue to follow the Pontiac service manuals as they are written, and to recommend to others to explicitly follow the service manual procedure for correctly packing the seals for best possible results.---As far as how Pontiac originally assembled the seals with the proper preload, I do not have that information so am unable to comment on it. Looking forward to visiting with you at Dallas in a few weeks. Jim Hand

Steve Chin Bio 5/27/99 17:23

I jsut ripped an original rope seal out of a 455 (OK, not just did it, but a few weeks ago). After allowing it to sit for a few days (I was especially lazy) I noticed that it had expanded. I think that the factory had some way of compressing the things in the caps that is not available to us mere mortals. Anyhow, when I went and re-read the section of the '70 service manual on seal installation, they indeed do not make note of whether they are repairing an old seal or replacing it, but there is mention of removing the upper seal with a "Sneaky Pete" type tool. If one is to interpret that information, I would say that they are talking about a seal replacement and not repair. This is my interpretation only, however.

- Chris lewisck@whidbey.net 5/27/99 23:53

Ok, I'm putting my seal in tomorrow, so I need to know what exactly you mean by packing 4 extra pieces into the seal. How big are these pieces, and where exactly do they go? Do you put the main rope in and then put these 4 pieces on top, packing them down, or do they go behind the main seal. If they go on top, it seems that the seal would be uneven and thus leak? Whats the correct method? Thanks

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html5/28/99 0:33

Actually, there are only 2 small pieces when you pack the seal. First you set and trim the section in the block as you outlined above. Set the crank in place. Then, with a soft brass punch that has been ground to the same shape as grove the seal sits in, you pack the ends of the seal (in the block) in further using the punch and a light hammer. The small pieces are then cut to fill the resulting voids left by pressing the seal further with the punch. The section of the seal in the cap does not get packed in with the punch and doesn't require any small pieces.

Jim Hand Bio 5/28/99 8:45

CLARIFICATION Of SEAL INSTALLATION: First, there is no always correct or always incorrect method of installing the stock style rear main seal. As some of the contributors to this thread have indicated, they have installed the rear seal without packing it, and have had good success over the years. I have stressed the need to pack in four additional pieces (and yes it is four pieces, two in each side), in order to provide some pre-load into the seal to further improve its sealing capability. All of the later Pontiac shop manuals provide similar instructions on how to do this, but they can be interpreted to mean only when repairing a leaky seal. As they do not provide any other method to install the seal, we have always used the packing method described in the manuals. However, some additional steps are required. To clarify, I will copy the '71 manual instructions and then add the required additional steps that we follow:----"1. Remove oil pan 2. Remove oil pump and baffle. 3. Remove rear main bearing cap. 4. Use tool shown in Fig. 6-128 made from brass bar stock to pack upper seal as follows: a. Insert tool against one end of the oil seal in the cylinder block and drive the seal gently into the groove until the tool bottoms. b. Remove the tool and repeat at the other end of the seal in the cylinder block. 5. Clean the block and bearing cap parting lines thoroughly. 6. Form a new seal in the cap (Fig-129). 7. Remove the newly formed seal from the cap and cut four (4) pieces approximately 3/8" long from this seal. 8. Work two 3/8" pieces into each of the gaps which have been made at the end of the seal in the cylinder block. Without cutting off the ends, work these seal pieces in until flush with the parting line and until no fibers are protruding over the metal adjacent to the groove. 9. Form another seal in the cap (Fig 6-129) Assemble the cap to the block and tighten to 120 lb. Ft. 11. Remove the cap and inspect the parting line to insure that no seal material has been compressed between the block and cap. Clean as necessary. 12. Apply a 1/16" bead of sealer from the center of the seal to the external cork groove. 13. Reassemble the cap. Tighten to 120 lb. Ft.14. Install baffle and pump. 15. Install oil pan"---Note that this year used a cork gasket on the rear of the pan. Most use the rubber rear pan seals.—Note that the four pieces are cut from one of the formed seals. As we normally replace both top and bottom seal, the four additional pieces are cut from the ends of the two large pieces after they are formed.---The forming tool can be any round object such as a rolling pin.---The packing tool (6-128) should be of soft material, such as brass or aluminum, so as not to scratch the crank surface.---Step 8 states to work in the four additional pieces - the packing tool is required to work/pack it down.---It should be noted that this is labor intensive and is a difficult job. You may be OK in simply laying two pieces of formed seal in the grooves and installing the cap. However, if you hate oil leaks as much as I do, you may find it worthwhile to take these extra steps to obtain the best possible seal. The objective of all this is to add seal material into the seal grooves in order to force the seal to grip the crank tighter and more consistent the entire circumference of the crank. Shortly after the installation, the additional force that was packed into the ends at the block will migrate and equalize around the crank, thus providing the additional gripping/sealing force. Its it necessary? Pontiac thought it was, and I sure do. Note that "forming" the seal is not "packing" it - packing requires it to be driven into the groove and the four additional pieces added and packed down. . I have made a scanned copy of this procedure, and of the packing tool, and will send it upon request. Again, there is no right or wrong here, but how much do you wish to do to avoid oil leaks? Jim Hand

Jim Hand Bio 5/28/99 8:56

Further Seal Packing Information: Two different pairs of rope seals are normally included in each gasket set. The shorter thicker ones are for use with the 400 and other small journal blocks, and the longer thinner pair is for the larger journal blocks (455). As stated above, we form two seals in the cap. As one will be placed in the block, the ends do not need to be carefully cut or smoothed, because they will be packed down. The second seal for the cap should be carefully trimmed, and have it ready for installation as quickly as the packing is finished. A lot of preload is added into the block by packing, and the seal will almost immediately begin to migrate or expand back out after packing. A lot of trouble? You bet, but if you want the best possible seal (including the incorrect size plastic seals for Ford or Cadillacs that some try to use) this is the procedure that will provide it! Jim Hand

- BMF 5/29/99 14:24

Interesting. Not one of you mentioned measuring the seal area diameter on the crank. Oops. Here goes the flood gates. Page fourteen sub section 12|A of the seal area procedures of inspection and procedure.

bvr421 Bio 5/29/99 14:37

What are you suggesting Bruce? That the seal area can wear down? I have only about a dozen examples to go by but I've never noticed any difference visually because the serrations have always appeared to be the same. If this serrated area was a smaller diameter from wear, that might explain the need for the seemingly "extra" effort of packing as JHand points out the factory manual prescribes. Tell us more! BTW, heard a rumour about your health, hope all is better!

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- rear main seal leak - michael o joreill1@nycap.rr.com 7/2/99 15:13

well i finally got the whole thing back together for the second time.much thanks for all the help. now i have another problem. rear main seal seems to be leaking,is there any way to fix this without pulling the engine all responses welcome. the car runsgreat otherwise except for the puddle of oil,.

Responses

OldsGuy Bio 7/2/99 16:16

well, that depends on whether or not you want to drop the tranny instead of pulling the engine... ;)

Steve Chin Bio 7/2/99 17:30

Michael, it is possible to service the rear rope seal with the engine installed in the car (although it IS a PITA). The Factory Service Manual outlines the procedure. If you don't have access to one, I can scan and email you the section from one of mine.

- michael o joreill1@nycap.rr.com 7/2/99 17:43

steve i have a chilton manual will that help? if not i would appreciate yours. i just put the whole engine back together.really dont want to pull the engine again.but i will do whatever it takes.

Steve Chin Bio 7/2/99 18:05

I believe that Chilton's lifted numerous sections out of the Factory Service Manuals. The only way to find out if it contains the proper information (which I believe it does) is to open up the Chilton's book to the section on engines and look for the rear main seal R&R instructions.

Johnathan Bio 7/2/99 22:30

just pull the motor, you will be happier the next day

JDgoat Bio 7/3/99 11:22

I hear your pain as mine sealed fine but leaked after the winter storage period with only a couple hundred miles on the motor. From what I heard the best bet is to pull the engine. I know a couple retired Pontiac mech. who said the fix with the engine in usually always ended up leaking within a year anyway.

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- Rear main seal trouble - R Volk rvolk@sendit.nodak.edu 7/27/99 17:19

I read all the info I could find in the archives before attempting the job of replacing the rear main seal on my 76 455. I used a sneeky peat bought at the local parts store. I screwed in the cork-screw item and turned the crank, and the seal tore off about an inch up in the top cap. I then tried the opposite side and the same thing happened. The seal piece that did come out is mush. I now have apx. 4 1/2 inches of seal in the main cap with nothing to grab. I have loosened all of the main caps to give a litttel extra space, and need to know if there are any solutions with-out dropping the crank? Can I push it through with some-thing that will do the trick? The Fel-Pro gasket kit directions also sent two lenghts of seals. ( 6 and a 7 inch) The directions say for a 70-76 455 to use the 7 inch, but I measured the seal on the bottom cap and it measures 5 1/2 inches. HELP!!!

Responses

BA Bio 7/27/99 17:32

Try a brass rod. Brass is softer than steel and won't scratch the crank. If you use a coathanger, you run the risk of ruining the crank journal.

Steve Chin Bio 7/27/99 17:53

Use the long seal for the 455, as it is supposed to be cut flush nd then packed (did you make yourself a packing tool?). I fully agree with BA to try to use something like brass to push the rest of the upper rear seal out.

- R Volk 7/27/99 21:03

Will a copper rod work or will that scratch?

BA Bio 7/27/99 21:08

Copper is softer than steel, so that is OK. Make sure that it is not copper coated iron, though.

- R Volk 7/28/99 22:16

I loosened the main caps to allow the crank to fall just a bit to get my ripped rope seal out. (It Worked, Thanks): Now; do I need to have the caps tight before I put the new top seal in to make it seat right, or can I put the seal in and then tighten it up with-out the seal pinching in the cap some-where it is not suppose to?

Topic: 10189

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- rear main seal grooves - High Output Bio 7/28/99 14:18

This might be a stupid question, but I have to ask. On my 400 block (I don't remember if it was this way with my 455) there are three (or is it two?) grooves at the back. I assume the rear-most one is where the rope seal goes. What about the other(s)? One is covered by the upper bearing shell, although the shell does have three oil drain holes in it that sit directly above the groove. Why would the back part of the bearing shell cover this groove?

Responses

Steve Chin Bio 7/28/99 17:09

One groove, as you suspected, is for the rope seal. The other groove is for the "oil slinger." This part actually does more to prevent any oil from pouring oiut the back of the block than does the rope seal. It's a disc that's machined into the crankshaft just ahead of the bearing surface against which the rope seal rides.

High Output Bio 7/28/99 22:04

Thanks for the reply, Steve. So, is the disc on the crank supposed to ride inside of this second groove? As I said, the bearing shell actually COVERS this groove, though there are 3 holes in the shell directly abovce the groove. I guess that unless I have the wrong bearing set, it must be ok, since the shell will only go in one way. But, I wanted to make sure I was not making a disastrous mistake by covering this groove. Thanks again.

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- Rear main seal - R Volk 7/29/99 7:52

I loosened the main caps to allow the crank to fall just a bit to get my ripped rope seal out. (It Worked, Thanks): Now; do I need to have the caps tight before I put the new top seal in to make it seat right, or can I put the seal in and then tighten it up with-out the seal pinching in the cap some-where it is not suppose to?

Responses

- DFS 7/29/99 12:36

Seal in first, then tighten caps.

MB Bio 7/29/99 20:50

Then loosen, check for seal leaking out,push in what's not in allready,snug it all up using silicon on the non-seal area.MB

BA Bio 7/29/99 20:58

Wipe a little grease on it first so that the crank doesn't 'grab' the seal.

MB Bio 7/29/99 21:04

Right on, BA. especially if it is going to sit for a while. MB

MB Bio 7/29/99 21:18

Right on, BA. especially if it is going to sit for a while. MB

MB Bio 7/29/99 21:41

oops, beer on the console again, MB

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- Rear main seal tool - Jamer Bio 8/5/99 21:24

I've had limited success in the past installing rear main rope seals in pontiac engines. I'm getting ready to put together a 455 for a friend and I'd like to try the procedure outlined in the pontiac service manual, but I don't have access to one of those tools described in the manual. Does anyone know where I can purchase one? I live in a somewhat rural area and if I have to I'll have a machine shop in the city make one of each although it would be rather inconvenient. TIA.

Responses

- Todd farland@cts.com ..\members/html/4.html..\members/html/4.html8/5/99 21:46

You can't buy one (no one makes them), so if you want one, you'll have to make your own from a piece of brass. IMO, it isn't needed unless replacing a seal with the engine installed where you are leaving the old upper part of the seal in place. I don't pack my new seals (never have) and have never had any problems with main leaks. Ever.

BA Bio 8/5/99 23:00

Here's a trick I used many years ago on I think it was an Opel engine out of my cousin's car. We were putting in new bearings, etc. and it had a rope type seal. The manual showed this ungodly looking t-shaped tool for pressing the seal down into the groove. Lacking that, we used the barrel of a baseball bat and a hammer. I positioned it in the block to get a nice tight fit against the seal and my cousin swung the hammer. Worked great, didn't leak, but I can't recommend the procedure, but I thought some of you guy's might get a laugh....:)

Jerry Coffee Bio 8/6/99 8:16

I made me that tool. It works very good too. I purchased a 5 ft. brass rod for $18 at a hardware store and made it on a grinder per the dimensions given in the Pontiac Craftsman Newsletter dated March 1963. It took about 45 minutes to make it. Of course the remaining 4 ft of the rod is waste. At $80 an hour shop time, a machine shop would charge you at least $100 to make one and in most cases, it will be used only once, then traded off, resold or tossed in the tool box and never reused. Maybe Ames Performance Engineering can have them made in volume to sell to the Pontiac engine builders at half the machine shop price. I am suprised that he has not already done it. Every Pontiac engine builder needs one.

Witchdoctor Bio 8/7/99 22:47

We had one heck of a discussion on this topic a couple of months ago. I always believed the tamping tool was only for seal repair with the engine in the car. For engine assembly, I have a section of pipe for the small journal blocks, and an old floor jack wheel for the big ones. Like Todd says, I've never had a problem. The grooves in both block and cap have to be spotlessly clean, including the drilled recesses that keep the seal from rotating. I use a very light smear of Permatex on the back of the seal, firmly tamp it into place with my round tool, and a dead blow mallet. I use a saber shaped, large X-acto blade, which I hone before cutting each end of each seal. Either grease, or soak the seal with assembly lube before lowering the crank into position. I apply sealer just like the factory manual indicates, but I use the permatex here as well. WD.

Topic: 11121

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- sealer on rear main - obeid Bio 9/3/99 7:40

I've heard of numerous ways to do it. From this board, some say put a dab on the ends of the rope and torque it together. The instructions that came with the gasket kit say NOT to do this and my machinist says to put a bit on the flat surface where the cap and block meet. I don't want any leaks. What has worked for you guys in the past?

Responses

geo Bio 9/3/99 8:17

sealer and graphite don't stick together for long. when you cut the ends leave about 1/64 sticking up from block and cap. when the cap goes on it will press the ends together and seal. Don't get carried away with beating the seal in the block and cap also. use round stock/pipe to shape seal.

BA Bio 9/3/99 8:21

A baseball bat works too...

Jerry Coffee Bio 9/3/99 11:07

Clean the cap and block surface with with brake cleaner and place a 1/8" bead of Permatex sealer from the rear main cap rope seal to the cork groove on the rear main cap. When you torque the cap down, it will compress and spread the sealer between the cap and block making a good seal.

Topic: 11862

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- Leaking rear main seal - John Bersee Laurajohnb@prodigy.net 10/6/99 16:05

My engine has been apart now for a year, I took it apart because I blew a push rod and lifter. I had metal all over the engine so I took it out of the car and sent it to the shop. They cleaned out the engine and while there I had them balance the bottom end and reinstall it. I wanted them to do the rear main seal as I know my talents there are less that perfect. I have had success and failures doing this job and felt it best to let the experts handle it this time. The engine sat on an engine stand for the better part of eight months before I managed to find time to get it back into the car. Well the car is now running with about an hour and a half total running time since it was installed and I now have a major oil leak. I know this leak, as I have fixed it my self before. There is no dought it is the rear main seal. This means pulling the engine and the bottom out again. So what is my course of action here! I really don't have the time to do this job over and I don't feel that I should since I paid a shop to do it orginally. Yet I know that when I complain to the shop there just going tell me that this was a risk and that I abused the car and caused the leak. What do I do?

Responses

BA Bio 10/6/99 16:24

John, You're assuming that they will take a defensive position. Contact the shop, be polite, and explain the situation in detail. See what their response is before you take any action. At least give them the opportunity to take care of you as a customer before they look at you as an adversary. Good luck.

Topic: 12366

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- rear main seal - nic young www.bait72chevy@yahoo.com 10/26/99 9:13

the rear main seal on my pontiac 400 is always leaking. I have replaced it about 4 times and about a week of driving it is leaking real bad. what the hell can I do without pulling the motor and crank to stop it from leaking real bad. Is there a certain expert way to put the rope in. i could use some help. i'm afraid i'll forget to put iol in it and race and blow it up.

Responses

Jerry Coffee Bio 10/26/99 13:15

OH NO, NOT AGAIN! I hope you do not have a manual transmission. The rear seal problem is why automatic transmissions are so popular in Pontiacs. Have you replaced the rear seal four times in a week? WOW, do you need a job? Pull the engine and do it right.

Steve Chin Bio 10/26/99 18:59

Search the archives here for more information ,as we had a discussion about this a while back. The gist of it is that the upper seal must be PACKED in firmly (3/4" on each end) in order to maintain a more or less leak-free seal.

jb69fb Bio 10/26/99 20:56

The rope has to be packed into the block using a flat round awl about the size of a pencil , don't ues a pointed awl . Than add about 1/2" of rope at each end packing until flush with block , main cap rope should not be cut , use the whole piece , soak with oil and make it fit . e- mail if you need more help or write Jim Hand

- nic young 10/27/99 8:28

I'll try this, I've been cutting thre seal so it is flush with the edges, and then torquing it down. So I need to leave excees rope and then torque it down.

Jerry Coffee Bio 10/27/99 10:37

My Pontiac pardner does not cut the rope flush. He leaves about 1/8" of seal sticking up on each side of the crank then torques down the cap with the seal cut flush in the cap. He claims that it will compress the seal engugh to get radial pressure in the groove and and against the crank. His method seems to work for about 300 miles. Only four drops of oil in 300 miles. My claim is that he only puts 300 miles a year on his 1961 Ventura. So how does he know if it works or not? A Pontiac rear seal will leak within 1400 miles if has not been installed correctly and progressively get worse!

Steve Chin Bio 10/27/99 15:35

Nic, if you like, I can reproduce the steps outlined in the Factory Service Manual for packing the rope seal. It is listed in the archives here as well, as typed by Jim Hand.

Jerry Coffee Bio 10/27/99 16:57

I made the brass tool for doing the Shop Manual "rope seal trick". The 1/2" brass rod costs about $18 and it takes about an hour to make it. I am really surprised that no one has made those tools and made them available commercially. I wonder if the guys at Performance Years or Steve Ames read these topics.

- nicholas young baits72 10/28/99 8:07

Hey steve that would be great becaus I can't seem to find any other info on this site.

- 10/28/99 11:13

There is plenty of info on this site about the rear main seal. When you search, you have to make sure you have it on "ALL" on this archive or it will not search the whole thing. Check out post #8768.

- sugardog @flash.net 10/28/99 11:23

Jerry C, are you talking about the lower the rear of the crank a hair and snake the rope seal up over it method? There is a commercially available tool for that job.

Steve Chin Bio 10/28/99 13:16

Sugardog, no... He's talking about the tool to pack the rope seal into the groove so that the four extra pieces can be inserted into the upper groove. I think he posted about his tool in more detail in the previous rope seal thread (#8768).// Nic, in the interests of not filling up the CP server's drives with redundant information, search the site for that topic number and you'll see Mr. Hand's instructions (also taken out of the Factory Service Manual).

Topic: 12628

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- Rear main seal - Scott 11/7/99 19:00

The rear main seal leaks on my 428. Can it be repaired by just removing the oil pan and resealing it, or does the crank have to come out? Thanks

Responses

- 69GTO's 11/7/99 19:12

I have seen the complete kits for sale that advertise the replacement seal and "special" helper tools to allow an in place replacement. Was it in Yearone ?? Never tried it though.

RPM Bio 11/7/99 19:45

Scott, you can perform the fix without removing the crank. Use that "packing" technique that has been covered quite well - search the Q&A archives for details. I have done it before and I know it works (using 4 3/8" pieces pushed in with a packing tool in the block side and a new rope on the cap). Also covered in the Pontiac service manuals.

- R 11/8/99 10:59

I think you can do it.. It's no fun dropping the oil pan while the block is in the car. It's also no fun removing the cap, fabricating the tool, getting the old rope crap out, and sliding the new one in without damaging it. I am in the same boat, but my engine is tired. I'm gonna wait to replace the seal until i pull the block out and rebuild it.

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- Rear main seal question - just another oil-stained Pontiac owner 1/26/00 22:22

Does anyone out there know why NOBODY ever bothered to make a neoprene rear main seal specifically for the two flavors of Pontiac V8, even during the 30-some years of it's production? We all know the Cadillac 500 seal trick for 421, 428 and 455, but the 389, 400, etc. guys are still left with the old rope seal. Why didn't Fel-Pro, Victor, Mr. Gasket, or even HO Racing ever produce one..did they think the market for this particular product was too small? Surely 20 years ago it wasn't. If somebody made the two seals today that specifically fit small and large journal Pontiacs AND it didn't ride on the rope seal grooves in the crank, which some people feel would wear it out prematurely, would you buy it?? I know I would. Maybe this idea's time has passed?? Let me know what you think!!

Responses

BVR421 Bio 1/27/00 0:06

No one ever made one because its a solution for no real problem. Ya I know the ropes leak after about 35 yrs of a crank rubbing on them but I'm not going to get bitter over that. just my 3cents

Jerry Coffee Bio 1/27/00 5:26

You answered your own question. The neoprene seals were not around when Pontiac engines were in production.

Scott B Bio 1/27/00 6:33

I do know of 1 Pontiac engine builder (can't think of his name at the moment)that does make a neoprene rear main seal for the small journal mains but he doesn't sell them outright, you have to have him build your engine to get them. Marketing ploy I guess.

- Mr. Driveway stain 1/27/00 9:37

I have nothing against the old rope seal except the pain of replacing it. Some people will tell you it drags on the crank but after pulling all the rods from several Pontiac V8s, I've noticed the crank can easily be spun by hand, so I give that arguement little merit. I just feel that if I was going to replace the rear main seal on my car, and didn't need to pull the engine for any other reason than that, I would want a ONE-PIECE neoprene seal with a flexible inner wire ring and just one gap to it. You would lift your engine, get the oil pan and rear main cap off, pull the old rope seal out using whatever method works best, then simply feed this new seal back around the block groove positioning the single gap at about 4 or 8 o'clock position below the block. A tiny dab of sealer on the seal gap and reinstall rear main cap. Torque it down, put oil pan back on and lower\bolt engine in back in place. If you are pulling the engine for other reasons then the job is that much easier. Again my question is: Why didn't anybody make one 20 years ago when they would have sold like hotcakes? Is there still a market for them now? If I knew where I could get such a seal, I would buy several of both sizes right now. Of course if a little oil seepage on the back of your engine doesn't bother you, then fine, but it eventually coats the entire underside of your car and that is just a pain.

BVR421 Bio 1/27/00 9:49

you just described replacing a rope! whats the diff execpt for material? Are you saving time with a rubber seal? Sorry I dont get it?

- Mr. DS 1/27/00 10:26

You can't actually REPLACE the BLOCK half rope seal with a NEW rope seal unless you loosen the crankshaft a little, which of course makes the job more difficult...the other four main caps must be loosened and you will have to pry the crank down a small amount. The timing chain and crank balancer\front crank seal won't like that and will resist a lot. There is NO WAY you could feed a new rope seal back into the block side groove without loosening the crank first. You can't push a rope seal in, and I guarantee you couldn't pull it in either. NOW..the Pontiac service manual procedure would have you remove the rear main cap and PACK the OLD block half seal in, along with 4 seperate pieces of new seal, each 3/8" long, and then form a seperate new half seal in the cap. Now your rear main seal consists of SIX seperate pieces of rope seal. This does work as many will tell you, but it requires making a brass packing tool AND you are still leaving part of your OLD seal in there. You didn't have to loosen your crank, but I just don't like the idea of not actually replacing the upper half of the seal, and cramming all those seperate pieces in there. NOW go back and read my procedure for installing a simple one piece flexible neoprene seal and tell me it wouldn't be a better, easier method. Remember you are laying flat on your back under your car with all the adjacent frame and such in your way, as well as oil dripping out of the block the whole time. If you are rebuilding your engine on a stand, this all becomes a non-issue because you have already removed the crank. What I'm basically trying to say is this: a neoprene seal replacement will most likely not require engine removal or crank loosening\removal. It will only have one gap as opposed to several in the rope seal after using the service manual procedure. The only hard part of the job, besides lifting the engine and pan removal which are a given with ANY seal, is pulling the old rope seal out. A neoprene seal will go in without having to lower the crank any. It is as simple as the job could possibly ever get.

OM Taylor Bio 1/27/00 13:12

On an A-body the engine has to come out to remove the pan, so dealing with the rope seal is no more an issue than the neoprene.

Steve Chin Bio 1/27/00 14:01

One more note: The design of the Pontiac crancshaft precludes the use of a one-piece rear main seal. The crank register would need to be one diameter all of the way doen to the seal and the flywheel bolt pattern would also have to be reduced. A suitable seal cage would need to be designed and fabricated, then a method of fastening it to the block in a leak-free manner would have to be devised. Too many headaches. Oh, FWIW, the Toyotas I was playing with had one-piece neoprene main seals. They didn't leak any less than any of the Pontiacs I've built.

- Mr. DR 1/27/00 14:24

Thanks for the reply, OM Taylor. As my earlier postings mention, if you have to pull the engine out at all then it becomes a non-issue. BUT...once the engine is out, how are you going to replace the upper half of the rope seal with a new one? YOU HAVE TO LOOSEN OR COMPLETELY REMOVE THE CRANKSHAFT to get a COMPLETELY NEW piece of rope seal into the block. If you don't want to loosen the crank, then follow the Pontiac service manual and re-pack your old seal, add 4 pieces of new seal to and pack those as well, and then a fifth new piece for the main cap half. Now your "new" rear seal consists of 6 seperate pieces of rope, 1 of which is still part of the old seal....and 5 of these 6 are all jammed into the block side of the seal groove. I'm sure this works since Pontiac engineers wrote that procedure, but given a choice I would just as soon replace the ENTIRE seal, and a neoprene seal allows you to do this without disturbing the crankshaft. This seal is for the guy who only wants to fix an oil leak, not do an engine teardown...and I'm sure there are a lot of Pontiacs out there that allow oil apn removal without actually pulling the engine completely out of the car. I've did it in 1986 to the 455 in my old '76 Ventura for one example, but I used the Cadillac replacement seal then and it was SO EASY!! Believe me guys, I'm on your side, I have a leaky 389 right now. No neoprene replacement seal available for this engine (that I know of.) But I am considering drawing up a plan for a small journal seal, and I just want to know if anybody out there would be interested in such a part, and why did nobody ever make one before, especially between 1955 and 1979?? SCOTT B...who was that guy you said had made one for 400s? Sorry for all the typing.

- Mr. DR 1/27/00 14:39

Steve Chin, you missed the description of my idea for a one piece seal...it does have one gap (cut) in it. Inside the seal is a flexible yet bonded wire core, like the metal frames of those "memory frames" used in eyeglasses. You can twist them all up and they pop back into shape. Anyway, since it does have one gap, you can feed it around the block side of the crank until it pops out the other side. It will fit around the crank in your engine right now. It is shaped to the current seal groove of your block, which is machined. I do see the possible need of a "shoehorn" of plastic film to help guide it thru the seal groove without damage, then pull the shoehorn out once the seal is in position. Then just reattach rear cap. You mention the neoprene seal on your toyotas leak no more than your Pontiacs, but do they leak at all? I honsetly feel this seal design would do all Pontiac V8 owners a great service, whether you are completely rebuilding your engine on a stand OR just trying to fix a rear main leak.

Steve Chin Bio 1/27/00 15:44

Mr. DR, I did miss the part about the single split in the seal, but that raises a new question: In order for something to seal in that groove, it's going to have to be fitted pretty tightly in it. I don't see any traditional lip seal type device doing that and still being able to slide freely into the groove. A condom/shoehorn might help, but it's still going to grapple. Add to that the need to get the crank pretty far out of the block prior to even attempting to thread this seal in there, and I'm not sure that it isn'tadding time and work to the job that is already at hand.//The Toyotas didn't leak any *less* than the Pontiacs, and they did leak after a while of banging them around at 9K or more RPM. The seals consisted of a rubber lip seal with a spiral-wound ob-flat pre-tension spring around the periphery of the seal. They were absolutely leak-free for quite a while, then they'd drip a little (three or so seasons). I haven't had the opportunity to rev a Pontiac that high (and likely never will), so I can't say that the old-fashioned rope seal would live at those speeds. It seems to suffice for my needs now.

- Mr. DR 1/27/00 17:36

Steve, I understand your concern that this seal design will be difficult ot install, but I don't think it will. Years ago when i was just out of high school (1986), I had a 76 ventura that I dropped a 72 455 and a turbo 400 into. What a fast car, except it had a real appetite for 10 bolt rearends (never could find a 12 bolt in my price range). Anyway it developed a rear main seal leak. I bought a Cadillac 500 2 piece rear main seal from HO racing. It has a stiff inner wire that allows you to push it into position rather easily, once you pre-lubricate it. I was able to lift the engine high enough to get the oil pan off by removing the distributor and fan shroud, and unbolting my headers at the collectors, and of course the engine mounts. I removed the rear main cap, and got real lucky that to be able to pull the upper half of the old rope seal right out with needle-nose pliers, that may be a symptom of why it leaked, who knows? But I tell you what, that Cadillac seal was easy as pie to rotate back into it's place, and with a little dab of sealer on each end, it never did leak again. I told anyone who would listen that their 421,428 and 455 rear main oil leaks were a thing of the past. But now I have a 389 and there is no substitute (that I know of) for the rope seal. I would like to design one for all of us but I gotta know if it is worth the investment of time and money. And any ideas on how to improve it are more than welcome. See previous posts in this topic for a basic description of how I see it now. One thing I am aware of is the actual sealing lip must not ride on the diagonal grooves of the crank...I have read that some people feel the grooves would wear out a neoprene seal quickly, or let oil past it.

- Todd farland@cts.com http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/4http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/41/27/00 18:35

The rope grooves in the crank don't cause the neoprene seal to appriciably wear any quicker. I've had one of the Cad seals in my 455 for a lot of years and quite a few miles, still no leaks.

- Mr DR 1/27/00 19:15

That's great Todd. I think my old 455 racked up at least 30,000 miles with no laeks either before I junked the car (from extensive rust, kept the engine though). More proof a neoprene seal for a small journal Pontiac V8 will work too. Now if you had a 400 all those years ago, would you have been interested in a neoprene seal for it? (especially if it was designed for a Pontiac 400, and not a Cadillac 500)

- Todd farland@cts.com http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/4http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/41/27/00 19:21

Who needs it to be 20 years ago? They should sell like hot-cakes right now. Actually, I'd still be interested in a neo-prenne rear seal for the small journal engines, as well as one designed to properly fit the groove on the large journal engines, just to have another option avalable. I would actually prefer the seals to be a two piece design rather than the one piece as I feel the two piece would be easier to install for most applications and also allow for custom fitting of the seal ends (which may be required on blocks that have been alighn bored/honed). Of course, I don't have any problems with the rope seal installs (no leaks there, either), but a choice would be nice.

OldsGuy Bio 1/27/00 19:44

I've gotten a new rear main in my 403 Ventura without loosing the crank or pulling the engine. I had to jack up the engine to get the oil pan off and the whole job took almost all day, but it can be done. I just wouldn't do it that way again.

- Mr DR 1/27/00 19:52

Oldsguy, are you saying you installed a completely new ROPE seal in a 400 Pontiac V8 without loosening the crank at all? (you only remove the rear main cap?) Can you tell me how you got the upper half of it in? And does it leak at all now? How many hours on the engine since you did this?

BVR421 Bio 1/27/00 22:02

I think he's talking 403 Olds, I havent done an inframe Pontiac seal for about a hundred years but the last one I remember was a snap to do (all damn day, bearings too) I just needlenosed the top out and slimjimed (piece of flex wire) the new one in. Its just not that hard to do once the pan is off. I agree a one or two piece rubber might be more convenient but I'm personally not too passionate about it.

- Mr DR 1/27/00 22:42

Well I can't say anything about an Olds engine, I've never torn one down and have no idea what their rear main seal looks like. But I do know exactly what both a Pontiac 400 and 455 rear main seal looks like, as I have both blocks out on the garage floor right now. I'm really just wanting to know if anybody out there would want a neoprene replacement seal option if it was available for our favorite engine. I'm really wanting to develop this product, but the lukewarm responses I'm getting to the idea seem like it may be a waste of my time and money. It's a simple question: If the CORRECTLY SIZED neoprene rear main seal was available for both small and large journal Pontiac V8s, and it could be installed without having to loosen all five main caps, would you buy it?

plainfast Bio 1/28/00 8:30

OM Taylor...I have pulled the oil pan off of my 65 gto without much work at all. take out motor mount bolts, use engine crane to lift engine, take out distributor.

OM Taylor Bio 1/28/00 12:04

Plainfast - When I tried it on my '64 I already had the flywheel off and the engine up as high as possible. My pan hit the frame before I could get it to clear the front main cap. Maybe our parts are different? It has been a long time ago, so it is possible I did not remove the distributor, I don't remember for sure.

al Bio 1/28/00 13:28

Guys...I know this has been re-hashed time and time and again,but what do you guys do in terms of fitting the neoprene seal. Some recommend minor mods for a leak free fit. I am curious as to how many people just plop it in there and go and don't have any leaks.

- Mr. DR 1/28/00 13:59

Al, of course you know the only currently available neoprene seal is a Cadillac 500 seal and will only work on the 421, 428 and 455. With that said, it is necessary to carefully grind the inner steel ring of the seal back a small amount to allow it to fully compress against the crank surface and into the seal groove of both cap and block. Be careful not to harm the neoprene portion of the seal while doing this. Make sure lip of the seal faces front of engine. A tiny dab of sealer on both end gaps of the seal helps too. If you don't have a 421, 428 or 455, would you buy a neoprene replacement seal for your Pontiac V8 if one was available? I am going to cast both a 400 and 455 block this weekend to get the ball rolling on making one.

soupcan Bio 1/28/00 18:51

I`ll try one--send me a prototype please Mark

- Mr DR 1/28/00 23:08

Soupcan, I would love to send you one.. if it actually existed. This whole thread has been about my attempt to see if people such as yourself would be interested in buying such a part, because I currently may have the means to design and possibly produce a neoprene replacement seal for Pontiac V8s. The first one will be for the small journal blocks (326,350,389,400). The second, of course, will be for 421, 428 and 455. The one thing that is stopping me now is the fact that I can't understand why NOBODY ever made one before...especially during the time period of 1959-1979 when Pontiac V8s were still being produced, and from 1979 until right now when people might still be interested in buying such a part. Go back and read thru this entire thread to get a better idea of WHY I want to produce this seal. If this all works out and we develop such a seal and prove that it does work, the people that visit Classical Pontiac will be the first to know, I promise you that. Reply to this thread and I will put you on a list to recieve free seals, just tell me your engine size. But don't hold your breath, these things take time. I want to produce this idea but I have to know that there are people out there that want it!

al Bio 1/28/00 23:17

Mr Dr I currentlty have the cadi rear main in my 455. It's the first time I am going to run one. I have always run rope seals. My experience has been that sometimes the rope seal leaks,other times it doesn't. Depending on cost I would buy 4 neoprene seals for my 455's.

- Mr DR 1/28/00 23:28

Thanks Al...if we manage to get these seals made you've got 4 free ones coming your way. Anybody else??

- Todd farland@cts.com http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/4http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/41/28/00 23:30

I think the reason that no one has ever done one is the start-up cost involved to produce the first run. Off the top of my head, you'll be looking at anywhere from $20-$30K to maybe as much as $50-$80K for each seal size. You'll have to sell a Sh@tload of $8 seals just to break even. (basing my estimates on cost estimates for producing less costly, ie simplier tooling, parts with a single piece). For the seals you want to produce, you need to produce two parts (the internal wire and the rubber seal that goes around it), the die mold will have to be a precision mold to make the seal to precise tolerances (can't be sloppy or "close enough" and that die mold will wear out and need to be replaced at some time.... and sooner than you think) and you'll need to contract with a manufacturer that has the machinery to crank these puppies out (can't exactly make those at home in the garage). Then you have the little expense and hassle (still a expense) of packaging the seals for resale, storage of inventory, and all the little headaches of biz license, shipping orders (even if only at wholesale level), etc, etc, etc. I hope you can pul it off. Not trying to sound like a wet blanket, just pointing out some things you may not have thought of yet.

- Mr DR 1/29/00 0:00

Todd, that is exactly the kind of brutally honest reply I have been looking for here. Yes, a significant investment is going to be necessary up front, but I hope it isn't as high as you mentioned. Even so, isn't that amount simply chicken feed to Fel-Pro, or Victor, or most importantly General Motors? They could have easily afforded to produce this part....WHY didn't any of THESE companies ever make this seal? Sure the rope seal works but it is 1950s technology. The small block Chevy has had a neoprene seal for a damn long time, why not Pontiac? This is the part of the equation that doesn't make sense...40 years pass and nobody ever thought it was worth it. Is it dumb to to try to produce the part now...in the year 2000?? What about Edelbrock...releasing aluminum heads for the Pontiac V8 a few years ago...heads for an engine out of production since 1979?? Am I missing something here? If this seal was available in a few months, for both the 400 and 455, how many of them do you think would sell?? 100? 500? 1000? 10,000? ???? I am nuts to even consider this? You can tell me straight up, I'm a big boy. I just want to do all my fellow "true" pontiac owners out there a favor. I've never felt a greater kinship of Pontiac owners than I do while reading thru this site. The people that read and contribute answers to this Q&A column are the people I want to meet, and help out, even if it is in such a small way as providing them with an easy to install and leakproof rear main seal. I'm not a guy with money to burn..not at all. I only own one old Pontiac myself, and whaddya know, the rear main leaks. But I still think it MAY be possible to produce these seals and distribute them cheaply, especially with the power of the Internet nowadays.

Eric L. Bio 1/29/00 15:03

Car Craft/Oct. 84; p. 32 has an article titled "25 Tips To Put Your Pontiac On The Warpath". These are tips from John Clegg and Glen Tinsley of Texas. The article said for 400s to use the seal for 472 Caddy and for 455s use one for a 460 Ford. This is obviously a typo. A later issue corrected this by reversing the application. I take this to mean that a seal for a 460 Ford would work on a 3" main 400. Can anybody verify the main journal dia. of a 460 Ford? Also, for the rope seal, I have never seen anyone sell a brass tool like the shop manual says to use. I guess most people use a wood dowel or hammer handle to form the rope seal in the groove. Forcing extra small pieces of seal into the groove with a home made brass tool seems too much of a hassle!

azrael Bio 1/29/00 17:02

Mr.Dr. if you do it i'd pay 20.00 for a seal that did not leak that will get you closer to your 50k mark.

- Mr DR 1/30/00 10:23

Thank you once again. Hopefully it won't have to be $20 though. We shall see. What size engine is in your GTO?

lugnut Bio 1/30/00 11:00

Why reinvent the wheel? Why not have an adapter made that will fit in the cavity in the block and main cap that would accept a "stock item" made for another engine? From what I have seen, this material could be extruded and cut to length to fit around the OD of a "stock" oil seal. Or you could have a piece molded that would have the proper OD and ID to accept the "stock" seal and fit in the block. Some type of adhesive would be necessary to prevent the seal from turning inside the adapter. If this bonding is too difficult for us then the parts manufacturer could sell it already done.

donny Bio 1/30/00 11:52

Website: http://donnylee@AOL.com

Mr Dr....I have too wondered like you, why no rubber seal? In my experience the ropes eventually leak and are not as good as the rubber....Ropes dry out, then they shrink and they leak. I have actually thought of the same thing your doing.... Look here is an example: There is a company in Texas selling repro Ram Air 3 manifolds...Lots of people would have said oh how many sets would you actually sell? There not any better then headers, and only a pee pants purist would want them! My observation last year was demand was greater then supply for them. The guys been in business for over 5 years now and going strong. Now he has his Dad running that business, and I bought a pair. Why? They are good performing and more reliable in my opinion when it comes to exhaust leaks of cheap poor fitting headers, I will not mention heat.... I have literally spent days trying to get an ole rope seal out of Grannys Lincoln with the engine in the car, when I finally did get all the pieces out I went rubber. Took me two seconds to slide it in, and never leaked again. So as you can tell I am a bit more optimistic then others, and I do believe it is a superior method of long term sealing, and easy installation/removal. Your product could command the 20.00 price, and who is to say that you could not supply this part to a wholesale parts supplier? Am I dreamer as you may be accused, maybe, but I doubt it. Even if Billy Bob came into a parts store for a rear seal for his 69 PMD station wagon which part do you think he would buy? The easiest thing to install, a two piece rubber seal. I hate ropes, maybe its me, but you have my fullest support. Call Ames and Year One and the rest of the parts houses when your done and proven. I would bet there will be a lot of demand, and they would carry a working part as you have suggested. Good luck to you and put me on your list for your 1st sale!

- Mr DR 1/30/00 16:41

Lugnut, I appreciate your reply but that sounds more difficult than the idea I'm currently entertaining. Your plan for an adapter assumes that some other seal out there has the same inner diameter as a Pontiac 400 crank seal journal. You may be right, but an adapter adds a third piece to the puzzle, and the seal groove is already a pretty tight little area to fill. I still feel a one piece seal with just one cut in it and a bonded yet flexible inner wire support is the way to go. Someone mentioned that a two piece seal is better because it gives the engine builder the ability to custom fit the seal, but I don't think that will be necessary. Unless you had to have the seal journal of your crank turned down for some reason, the seal will compress enough to allow for small variations from one block to another....thankfully all Pontiac V8s have a fully machined oil seal groove. The seal itself will be shaped to completely fill up the groove in the block, which on a 400 looks like a cross section of an old fan belt.

- Mr DR 1/30/00 16:55

Donny, thank you for your words of support. My dictionary defines neoprene as "a tough synthetic rubber that is resistant to the effects of oils, solvents, heat and weather." What more can you ask for in an oil seal? Now add ease of installation and it's pretty damn obvious which part is better. Going back to my earlier postings, the only problem people will experience with this part is getting their old rope seal OUT of the block...I will let other people speculate on the best way to extract an old rope seal without disturbing or damaging the crankshaft. I see from your Bio you have 2 400s already...I will put you on the list for new seals. Do you have leakage problems now? Thanks again.

72 HO455 Bio 1/30/00 17:53

Who has the patent on the seal design, Mr DR? If you are going to reproduce it you need to evaluate the market and this study should show how many seals are consumed a year and over the last decade. It may have made sense 15 years ago when sales were good on those old motors. But every year there are less and less on the road. I have never had a problem with the rope, but given a choice I would welcome one for a small crank! But if it costs you 10,000 to make and the market is 1000 seals a year will everybody buy them at 20.00 a set? I know the gasket companies won't add the expense to a 65.00 gasket set! Now if you want to make the 70-73 tail light lenses for the birds, write me and maybe we can start a side business!

soupcan Bio 1/30/00 20:06

After reading the above it appears that your determined to build this seal. In light of that I`ll buy 2 now even if they are $20 each. Mark

al Bio 1/30/00 20:46

I'll still buy 4 even at 20 dollars a pop.

- Mr DR 1/30/00 21:57

I don't know if there is a patent on the design or not, it is just an idea in my head...for now. I don't know at this point if it would even be an infringement of patent laws at all to manufacture these parts. I've been looking at other types of neoprene seals for basic construction and design notes, but the seal for a Pontiac 400 will be definetly be a unique part. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever made one specifically for Pontiac V8s, big or small journal. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned a Pontiac engine builder that has a neoprene replacement seal for small journal Pontiacs but apparently he won't sell the seals outright. Anyone know who this person is? I don't want to mislead you guys, like I said, this is all VERY preliminary right now...I'm currently just trying to gather technical information on Pontiac crankshafts and blocks as it relates to the rear seal. I'm also trying to get an idea of how well recieved this product might be...it seems some think I'm wasting my time, while others can't wait to get their hands on one. Believe me, I know this isn't like marketing a contender for Windows. I've been taking measurements on the three 400 blocks I currently have. (the 455 seal will come after the 400 units since we still have the Cadillac seal for now) Also...anyone know what the factory spec is for the seal journal on a 400 crank? I've measured 3.189" and 3.187" on two different 400 cranks. Does anyone have a blueprint for the small journal cranks?

Fantom Bio 1/30/00 23:49

I'm about to remove my 326 from my Lemans for a rebuild. I would drop 20.00 now for a reliable seal. Since I'm new to all this, this will be my first look at the innerds of a Pontiac V8. My engine also currently leaks, I just assumed it was because of age, I had no idea there wasn't a modern solution for an long time problem. I enjoy the discussion here and will do what I can to offer input.

azrael Bio 1/31/00 8:32

Mr. Dr. 455 and leaks like a MotherF-er

azrael Bio 1/31/00 8:47

If there is a pattend on the seal it should have expired several years ago and if the guy that has his own has a patt. on his, the patt. office should be able to tell you also from what I understand you can patt. an Idea without an actual prodotype. If your not overley concerned about getting rich start calling Fel-Pro or some of the others about your idea they pay for THEM to. If they need to be convinced about the market send them to this post. Just my .02- Jerry

Steve C. Bio 1/31/00 17:45

Contact Bob C. at High-Tech Machine (804-794-8640)he is currently working on a prototype seal kit for 3" mains. It involves a 460 Ford neoprene rubber seal and aluminum adapter rings.

- Steve steve73@execpc.com 1/31/00 19:34

Website: http://www.pontiacengines.net/

The guy who builds small journal engines with neoprene main seals is Greg Merrick. There is a picture of the seals on his webpage above. Next to cast 3"main 428 and 455 cranks, neoprene seals is one product I would love to see on the market.

- Mr DR 1/31/00 21:07

Steve, I visited pontiacengines website and saw no photos nor mention of a rear main seal. Can you post a link here that goes directly to the photo you saw? Steve C., I will try to contact the person you state is making this adapter to work with Ford 460 oil seal. If this is true and it goes on the market, and is successful at sealing, I will attempt to get one to see how well it works.

- Mr DR 1/31/00 21:12

Azrael, for now I suggest you get the Cadillac 472 seal and use it....it will be a long time before I have anything for the small journal engines, and longer still for the large journal engines. If I find someone else out there has successfully built these seals, then I will simply but their product and let everyone lese know about it.

- Steve steve73@execpc.com 1/31/00 21:15

Website: http://www.pontiacengines.net/rearseal.gif

The website takes a while to load.

- David Barker dbarker@kgl-law.com 1/31/00 21:53

I have a 66 GTO with a 389. I'd pay alot more than $20 to get a seal that was guaranteed not to leak. Mine leaks now and the only reason I haven't fixed it is that it is such a pain and it might still leak in a few months. I will let you come to Florida and put one of your new seals in my car as a prototype. No charge even!:-) It seems you could make more money by producing a cheap tool to take old seals out!

- Todd farland@cts.com http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/4http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/41/31/00 22:14

What I seem to be seeing from several of the posts where guys are interested in the possibility of a new seal is that they are really looking for a "magic bullet". All this talk about "I'll take a new seal if it's gaurenteed not to leak" is pure wishfull thinking. Even the BEST seal ever made will leak if not installed properly. The truth of the matter is, that if leak free is all you guys need, then the existing seals will do the job just fine IF INSTALLED PROPERLY! The rope seals DO NOT leak if properly installed and the caddy neoprene seal installed in a Pontiac WILL NOT leak if properly installed. New neoprene seals for both size journals would be nice, BUT a new seal is NOT going to gaurentee against leaks unless it is installed properly.

- Mr DR 1/31/00 22:19

Steve, thanks for the link. Well..there it is. I don't know how I missed it before. Now the only question is will Mr. Merrick sell this part to the the rest of us that can't afford to have him rebuild our whole engine?? I never expected to get rich from this idea anyway, but why do so few people know about this part?? Not even High Performance Pontiac seems to be aware of it. Maybe a flood of emails to Mr. Merrick will inspire him to sell his seal outright, if he doesn't already... I will be calling him tomorrow. Thank for all your help and support everybody.

Roar Bio 2/1/00 5:01

To be honest a little oil leackage is real nice. Look at it this way, you will get a nice shiny oil treated surface that wont rust. Hehe

azrael Bio 2/1/00 7:58

does anybody have a play-by-play of how to properly modify the caddi seal--Jerry

- Angus 2/1/00 13:01

I'd be interested in the seal. 68 GTO 400 cu. in.

- Todd farland@cts.com http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/4http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/42/1/00 13:30

I have posted detailed, step by step instructions for both types of seal installs in the past. Check the archieves.

azrael Bio 2/2/00 15:45

Thnx-Todd

Topic: 14801

Add Response/Jump to Last

- rear main seal - Bob Krueger bkrueger@terracom.net 2/13/00 12:07

I am in a dilemma about replacing that ever leaking rear main seal in my 389. I caught an article in High Performance Pontiac regarding a retrofit that is available for the unforgiving rope seal. They suggest using a Caddy seal and installing it using silicone to help keep it in place. My question to my feather head friends is that, have you or do you know of anyone that has tried the retrofit for a neoprene seal and has had good luck with this fix. I am seriously debating on putting another rope seal in the engine. Thanks to all who answer.

Responses

- Todd farland@cts.com http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/4http://www.pontiaconline.com/members/42/13/00 12:17

The Caddy seal only fits the 421-455 cranks, won't work on a 326-400. Check the archieves. There's about a thick book's worth of posts on rear seals there.

Kenny G. Bio 2/13/00 20:27

I wish HPP would run a retraction the that article. I can't belive how many people now believe that the Caddy seal will fit all Pontiac blocks. Todd is correct!! 421-455 ONLY!!! He's also correct that that the is about 1000 posts on this very subject. Check them out and if you still have questions, ask away.

Jerry Coffee Bio 2/14/00 9:19

Rope seals are fine if they are installed correctly. They must be packed in the groove using a special tool with the crank in place. Not just mashed in the groove with your fingers. There is a way you can pack them in without use the tool. It is a rather detailed process.

- bob krueger bkrueger@terracom.net 2/14/00 11:52

Thanks for the input. I am planning on pulling the motor for a detail job in the next month and was going to replace the seal. Anyone got any suggestions than what the service manual suggests?? Jerry, do you have the procedure for this??

Kenny G. Bio 2/15/00 2:00

Bob, probably some of the best instructions on this are found in topic # 8768. There is much more info in the following topic #s: 6054; 7142; 8615; 9616; 10156; 10189; 10206; 10406; 11862; 12366; 12628 and 14392. To get to these topics, simply go click on "search options" in the left upper window of your screen, and type in any of these numbers in the box marked "go straight to topic number:", then go back to the top and click on "Display Q & A Topics". You should find most all the info you need there.

Jerry Coffee Bio 2/15/00 10:14

The seal will loosen if not packed. I like to pack them until the crank nearly stops turning! Not really, but the rope seals need to be very tight and overlapped into the cap so there is no seal parting line at the cap and block. The two advantages of the neoprene 460 Ford/Cad seal on the the 389/400 engines is that it needs less drag on the crank to seal and it does not shrink.

kbmech Bio 2/15/00 10:23

I packed my 455 rear seal real tight and it was hard to turn the first few times but it did loosen up and so far no leaks.KB

- 2/15/00 12:28

Jerry, Are you telling me that you have used the Caddy fix on a 389?? I thought that was only for the 421 and 455.

Jerry Coffee Bio 2/15/00 12:33

Your right. It is for the 421-455 engines not 350-400 engines.

Kenny G. Bio 2/15/00 15:15

Jerry, I am currious as to how you pack the seal so tight yet are able to still overlap it into the cap. This is the first I have read about anyone overlaping into the cap also. Does anyone else do this?

Jerry Coffee Bio 2/16/00 4:31

Kenny....I e-mailed the procedure to Bob Kruger.

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•	No need to mess with Microsoft's SHED: use the built-in SHG Editor to create hotspot bitmaps. Draw your hotspots on the bitmap and pick the topic to link to from the list.

•	With the built-in Macro Editor you can easily compose WinHelp macros whenever needed. It will tell you what the correct parameters are and provide information on them.

•	If you have a problem, just consult the online help. The help file was completely created with HelpScribble, of course.

•	HelpScribble is shareware. However, the unregistered version is not crippled in any way. It will only add a small note to your help topics to encourage you to be honest and to register the shareware you use.

These options are very interesting for Delphi and C++Builder developers:

•	If you are a component writer, use the Delphi Parser to build an outline help file for your component. Just fill in the spaces and you are done. HelpScribble can also extract the comments from your source file and use them as the default descriptions.

•	If you are an application writer, HelpScribble provides you with a property editor for the HelpContext property. You can select the topic you need from a list of topic titles or simply instruct to create a new topic. No need to remember obscure numbers.

•	The property editor also provides a tree view of all the components on your form and their HelpContext properties. This works very intuitively. (Much nicer than those help tools that simply mess with your .dfm files.)

•	HelpScribble can perform syntax highlighting on any Delphi source code in your help file.

HelpScribble is shareware, so feel free to grab your copy today from my web site at http://www.ping.be/jg/